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	<title>Comments on: Pork is Good</title>
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	<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/</link>
	<description>Theology you can eat and drink</description>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6507</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 18:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[//Where does the Bible ever say that these prohibitions *were* for health purposes.//

It doesn&#039;t have to. Scientists have made the claim.

Just pointing out God&#039;s *capability* to offer miraculous blessings to Jews who kept the diet doesn&#039;t negate the possibility of natural benefits as well. So therefore, Jordan&#039;s argument isn&#039;t any more biblical or theological than mine is, and the question remains a scientific one.


//And you can’t say that uncleanliness is a health issue but cleanliness isn’t!//

Sure I can. I am saying that health-wise, the animals WERE unclean and always have been unclean, even now. A long time ago, God recognized this intrinsic nature of the animals, and he therefore used their natural unhealthfulness to illustrate his theological truths. His designation of these animals as &quot;unclean&quot; was not arbitrary. Once Jesus came and fulfilled the law, however, this theological/moral aspect of their uncleanness faded away. But that didn&#039;t change the original fact that they were unhealthful.

Granted, nowadays we have technology and medicine that can better deal with issues such as trichinosis. In a sense, you could I guess argue that nothing is truly unclean just because we have medicine to cure all ills. But that doesn&#039;t really change the intrinsic nature of the animals. And Jesus&#039;s declaration of all foods as clean shouldn&#039;t be construed to mean that all diets are equally healthy. That just was not his point at all.


//Jordan says elsewhere, in a lecture, that the Law was quite easy to keep for the Jews. Israelites weren’t ordinarily going to eat pig or horse or other unclean things.//

Even if this were true, it would support my claim -- because it would mean that ancient peoples naturally recognized the unhealthfulness of certain foods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>//Where does the Bible ever say that these prohibitions *were* for health purposes.//</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t have to. Scientists have made the claim.</p>
<p>Just pointing out God&#8217;s *capability* to offer miraculous blessings to Jews who kept the diet doesn&#8217;t negate the possibility of natural benefits as well. So therefore, Jordan&#8217;s argument isn&#8217;t any more biblical or theological than mine is, and the question remains a scientific one.</p>
<p>//And you can’t say that uncleanliness is a health issue but cleanliness isn’t!//</p>
<p>Sure I can. I am saying that health-wise, the animals WERE unclean and always have been unclean, even now. A long time ago, God recognized this intrinsic nature of the animals, and he therefore used their natural unhealthfulness to illustrate his theological truths. His designation of these animals as &#8220;unclean&#8221; was not arbitrary. Once Jesus came and fulfilled the law, however, this theological/moral aspect of their uncleanness faded away. But that didn&#8217;t change the original fact that they were unhealthful.</p>
<p>Granted, nowadays we have technology and medicine that can better deal with issues such as trichinosis. In a sense, you could I guess argue that nothing is truly unclean just because we have medicine to cure all ills. But that doesn&#8217;t really change the intrinsic nature of the animals. And Jesus&#8217;s declaration of all foods as clean shouldn&#8217;t be construed to mean that all diets are equally healthy. That just was not his point at all.</p>
<p>//Jordan says elsewhere, in a lecture, that the Law was quite easy to keep for the Jews. Israelites weren’t ordinarily going to eat pig or horse or other unclean things.//</p>
<p>Even if this were true, it would support my claim &#8212; because it would mean that ancient peoples naturally recognized the unhealthfulness of certain foods.</p>
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		<title>By: Trev</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trev]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Jordan says elsewhere, in a lecture, that the Law was quite easy to keep for the Jews. Israelites weren&#039;t ordinarily going to eat pig or horse or other unclean things. Not many of them would come into contact with Lobster or Crayfish! In fact  John the Baptisers parents were perfect before the Law in Luke 1. The complexity of the dietary Law argument is a little light on Drew. It assumes a western lifestyle and then argues back into the Bible. We oght to put ourselves into their context.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jordan says elsewhere, in a lecture, that the Law was quite easy to keep for the Jews. Israelites weren&#8217;t ordinarily going to eat pig or horse or other unclean things. Not many of them would come into contact with Lobster or Crayfish! In fact  John the Baptisers parents were perfect before the Law in Luke 1. The complexity of the dietary Law argument is a little light on Drew. It assumes a western lifestyle and then argues back into the Bible. We oght to put ourselves into their context.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6494</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 04:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Drew

Where does the Bible ever say that these prohibitions *were* for health purposes. And you can&#039;t say that uncleanliness is a health issue but cleanliness isn&#039;t! The clean/unclean issue regarding food was pedagogical, a test of obedience, with a lot of important symbolic significances attached.

It is interesting that the Israelites lived in Goshen because Egyptians considered shepherds (and sheep) unclean, in fact, an abomination. Was that a health issue?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drew</p>
<p>Where does the Bible ever say that these prohibitions *were* for health purposes. And you can&#8217;t say that uncleanliness is a health issue but cleanliness isn&#8217;t! The clean/unclean issue regarding food was pedagogical, a test of obedience, with a lot of important symbolic significances attached.</p>
<p>It is interesting that the Israelites lived in Goshen because Egyptians considered shepherds (and sheep) unclean, in fact, an abomination. Was that a health issue?</p>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6493</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 03:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=6526#comment-6493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, his point was that the UNcleanliness was separate from health. My point is that the CLEANliness is separate from health.

I think it requires a rather crummy view of God to think that he gave the Israelites a bunch of complicated, difficult, and painful rules if those rules were largely arbitrary and weren&#039;t even designed to benefit them. And if he wants to make this type of argument, the burden of persuasion is on him to make a scientific argument that the mosaic rituals had no health purposes. The Bible itself says no such thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, his point was that the UNcleanliness was separate from health. My point is that the CLEANliness is separate from health.</p>
<p>I think it requires a rather crummy view of God to think that he gave the Israelites a bunch of complicated, difficult, and painful rules if those rules were largely arbitrary and weren&#8217;t even designed to benefit them. And if he wants to make this type of argument, the burden of persuasion is on him to make a scientific argument that the mosaic rituals had no health purposes. The Bible itself says no such thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6492</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 02:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=6526#comment-6492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that is Jordan&#039;s point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that is Jordan&#8217;s point.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6491</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 02:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Was it healthful or unhealthful to quarantine lepers?

What exactly Jesus said about quarantining lepers (he said nothing), or about marrying your sister (he said nothing), or about defecating (he said nothing) is not particularly relevant. Jesus&#039;s words about the cleanliness of animals were about morality, not health.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was it healthful or unhealthful to quarantine lepers?</p>
<p>What exactly Jesus said about quarantining lepers (he said nothing), or about marrying your sister (he said nothing), or about defecating (he said nothing) is not particularly relevant. Jesus&#8217;s words about the cleanliness of animals were about morality, not health.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6490</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 01:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[But Jesus didn&#039;t tell Peter to arise and marry his sister, etc. The primary purpose of the Levitical Law was the camp of Israel. As Israel moved into greater engagement with the world (in Canaan, under Solomon, during and after the exile), the application of the Law required greater and greater wisdom.
Jesus declared all foods, and lepers, clean, regarding their fitnesss for &quot;consumption&quot; by the Tabernacle in the ministry of mediation. That is the primary application of these laws. You don&#039;t defecate in the house of God. David&#039;s dumping of 200 foreskins at the foot of Saul&#039;s throne was extremely unhealthy, as was Eglon&#039;s defecation in his throneroom - but the symbolism is thick enough to cut with a knife.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Jesus didn&#8217;t tell Peter to arise and marry his sister, etc. The primary purpose of the Levitical Law was the camp of Israel. As Israel moved into greater engagement with the world (in Canaan, under Solomon, during and after the exile), the application of the Law required greater and greater wisdom.<br />
Jesus declared all foods, and lepers, clean, regarding their fitnesss for &#8220;consumption&#8221; by the Tabernacle in the ministry of mediation. That is the primary application of these laws. You don&#8217;t defecate in the house of God. David&#8217;s dumping of 200 foreskins at the foot of Saul&#8217;s throne was extremely unhealthy, as was Eglon&#8217;s defecation in his throneroom &#8211; but the symbolism is thick enough to cut with a knife.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6489</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 01:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[There are a number of elements of the Law that are undeniable healthful. For example, it is healthful for the family not to marry your sister. It is also healthful to dispose properly of human waste, and to quarantine diseased individuals. Hence, the argument that the dietary laws have nothing to do with health seems rather far-fetched.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a number of elements of the Law that are undeniable healthful. For example, it is healthful for the family not to marry your sister. It is also healthful to dispose properly of human waste, and to quarantine diseased individuals. Hence, the argument that the dietary laws have nothing to do with health seems rather far-fetched.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6481</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Dec 2010 05:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I like the chiasm - the flesh is made clean in the centre, in the grave, under the fire of the law.

Following Jordan, I wouldn&#039;t say God sanctified existing customs, well, not in the way that most modern expositors think. God is always first, always original. The list of clean animals goes back to earlier Scripture, Abrahamic and Noahic. So they were pre-existing, but they were still from God, and so not actual accommodations as such.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the chiasm &#8211; the flesh is made clean in the centre, in the grave, under the fire of the law.</p>
<p>Following Jordan, I wouldn&#8217;t say God sanctified existing customs, well, not in the way that most modern expositors think. God is always first, always original. The list of clean animals goes back to earlier Scripture, Abrahamic and Noahic. So they were pre-existing, but they were still from God, and so not actual accommodations as such.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2010/12/14/pork-is-good/comment-page-1/#comment-6475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Murphy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Dec 2010 16:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I was going to comment, in memorial of the abomination of Mike Tyson&#039;s biting, and to put the HOLY back in Holyfield, we should&#039;ve begun eating the ears of our meat in 1997!

All joking aside, I think this is a far better way to think about the dietary laws than most.  I was struck, however, as I studied Mark 7:14-23, by the centrality of the &quot;all foods clean&quot; in the chiasm:
* A. what comes out defiles a person (14-18a)
** B. outside in? no! (18b-19a)
*** C. thus he declared all foods clean (19b)
** B&#039; inside out? yes! (20-22)
* A&#039; what comes out defiles a person (23)&#039;
I was struck by the similarity to Mt 5/Mk 10 (talking about Dt 24).  The feeling I get, is that the some parts of the Mosaic law were accommodations to existing Israelite practices.  Everett Fox&#039;s Torah says as much for the lists of clean and unclean animals.  God took their existing customs and sanctified them.  They don&#039;t apply to non-Jews and they don&#039;t apply after the Jewish covenant era.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to comment, in memorial of the abomination of Mike Tyson&#8217;s biting, and to put the HOLY back in Holyfield, we should&#8217;ve begun eating the ears of our meat in 1997!</p>
<p>All joking aside, I think this is a far better way to think about the dietary laws than most.  I was struck, however, as I studied Mark 7:14-23, by the centrality of the &#8220;all foods clean&#8221; in the chiasm:<br />
* A. what comes out defiles a person (14-18a)<br />
** B. outside in? no! (18b-19a)<br />
*** C. thus he declared all foods clean (19b)<br />
** B&#8217; inside out? yes! (20-22)<br />
* A&#8217; what comes out defiles a person (23)&#8217;<br />
I was struck by the similarity to Mt 5/Mk 10 (talking about Dt 24).  The feeling I get, is that the some parts of the Mosaic law were accommodations to existing Israelite practices.  Everett Fox&#8217;s Torah says as much for the lists of clean and unclean animals.  God took their existing customs and sanctified them.  They don&#8217;t apply to non-Jews and they don&#8217;t apply after the Jewish covenant era.</p>
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