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	<title>Comments on: The Seen and the Seers</title>
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	<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/</link>
	<description>Theology you can eat and drink</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15955</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2012 02:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15955</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark - sure, we start with the simple connections. But evangelicals don&#039;t get past the simple connections, which is why their eschatology is up a gum tree without a paddle.
Doug&#039;s recent post also illustrates my point. He says that the apostolic interpretation of OT texts is different to his own &quot;face value&quot; interpretation. Well, in most cases they are both right. What the apostles get is the typological connection between the two texts, because each is part of a similar covenant process. It&#039;s not one or the other. Yes, the NT sheds light on the OT, but not in the way Wilson seems to be indicating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark &#8211; sure, we start with the simple connections. But evangelicals don&#8217;t get past the simple connections, which is why their eschatology is up a gum tree without a paddle.<br />
Doug&#8217;s recent post also illustrates my point. He says that the apostolic interpretation of OT texts is different to his own &#8220;face value&#8221; interpretation. Well, in most cases they are both right. What the apostles get is the typological connection between the two texts, because each is part of a similar covenant process. It&#8217;s not one or the other. Yes, the NT sheds light on the OT, but not in the way Wilson seems to be indicating.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkO</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15953</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2012 00:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mike,
Doug W further validates my point that the simplest connection is foundational to anything else the may (or may not) result from our work of interpretation.
see 
http://www.dougwils.com/Chrestomathy/and-so-it-was-that-all-my-woes-began.html#JOSC_TOP

btw - I object not because I totally disagree with your approach. My objections are an effort to seek some balance. Thanks for you enthusiasm for God&#039;s Covenant Book to man.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,<br />
Doug W further validates my point that the simplest connection is foundational to anything else the may (or may not) result from our work of interpretation.<br />
see<br />
<a href="http://www.dougwils.com/Chrestomathy/and-so-it-was-that-all-my-woes-began.html#JOSC_TOP" rel="nofollow">http://www.dougwils.com/Chrestomathy/and-so-it-was-that-all-my-woes-began.html#JOSC_TOP</a></p>
<p>btw &#8211; I object not because I totally disagree with your approach. My objections are an effort to seek some balance. Thanks for you enthusiasm for God&#8217;s Covenant Book to man.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15927</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 04:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark, I&#039;m not arguing either/or. I&#039;m arguing for &quot;Carson and...&quot;
I actually left a comment on Doug&#039;s post. Will repost here.

Thanks for your objections! Great to have some interaction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I&#8217;m not arguing either/or. I&#8217;m arguing for &#8220;Carson and&#8230;&#8221;<br />
I actually left a comment on Doug&#8217;s post. Will repost here.</p>
<p>Thanks for your objections! Great to have some interaction.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkO</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2012 04:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually it is Carson who has rightly identified at least 50 inter-canonical themes that intersect the texts we need to interpret at face value. I take his advice as a reminder to see these theme without habitually layering subjective elements over the text (such as chiasms that must be seen in every text). I do not see his advice as creating a false dichotomy in which we must completely avoid types or themes or motifs.

We can indeed respect the presence of types and motifs in Scripture without making them the primary window through which we must see every single portion of Scripture.

A simple point that I think Doug Wilson was making in his post today &#039;Drive a Textual Nail.&#039; Some times there is an indescribable beauty in seeing a singular connection between one text in Scripture and another - the beauty of one line from one significant point in the OT to a later one in the NT. In such cases the beauty is evident not only in its unadorned bond, but also in the pure simplicity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually it is Carson who has rightly identified at least 50 inter-canonical themes that intersect the texts we need to interpret at face value. I take his advice as a reminder to see these theme without habitually layering subjective elements over the text (such as chiasms that must be seen in every text). I do not see his advice as creating a false dichotomy in which we must completely avoid types or themes or motifs.</p>
<p>We can indeed respect the presence of types and motifs in Scripture without making them the primary window through which we must see every single portion of Scripture.</p>
<p>A simple point that I think Doug Wilson was making in his post today &#8216;Drive a Textual Nail.&#8217; Some times there is an indescribable beauty in seeing a singular connection between one text in Scripture and another &#8211; the beauty of one line from one significant point in the OT to a later one in the NT. In such cases the beauty is evident not only in its unadorned bond, but also in the pure simplicity.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15897</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 04:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, my post is about the Covenant significance of Communion. How does Communion help someone with their anger? If we take the time to understand God&#039;s creative and interesting typology as it relates to Communion, it brings all of history to bear on the things we struggle with in every day life, including anger. That&#039;s how the Bible, and the world, are built. In fact, limiting counseling to explicit verses on, for instance, anger, distorts the Bible into a how-to booklet, full of verses for the day, helpful but out of context. Instead, we should be giving people a deep understanding of the ways of God, and how they shed light on the messy areas of life. David Deutsch, who obviously has a very soft heart, made this observation in his review of The Covenant Key:

http://www.amazon.com/review/RU0ISWZIDE69/

I hope that helps. Discovering we are part of a bigger picture of Conquest-by-Covenant, not just sitting tight till Jesus rescues us, is a big part of holiness and perseverance. it shows that our daily lives are organically connected to God&#039;s work in history. We ourselves are types, images.

I guess what I&#039;m saying is that a direct/non-direct debate is a false dichotomy. I&#039;m saying that attempting to interpret many passages without taking typology into account will give you the WRONG interpretation, which is why I disagree with Carson and others on their eschatology. Their failure to understand AD70 as Christ&#039;s imminent return for His firstfruits means they actually rip the New Testament out of context and make it fluffy in application for modern Christians. It&#039;s actually Carson&#039;s approach that distances us from the text by getting the interpretation wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my post is about the Covenant significance of Communion. How does Communion help someone with their anger? If we take the time to understand God&#8217;s creative and interesting typology as it relates to Communion, it brings all of history to bear on the things we struggle with in every day life, including anger. That&#8217;s how the Bible, and the world, are built. In fact, limiting counseling to explicit verses on, for instance, anger, distorts the Bible into a how-to booklet, full of verses for the day, helpful but out of context. Instead, we should be giving people a deep understanding of the ways of God, and how they shed light on the messy areas of life. David Deutsch, who obviously has a very soft heart, made this observation in his review of The Covenant Key:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/review/RU0ISWZIDE69/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/review/RU0ISWZIDE69/</a></p>
<p>I hope that helps. Discovering we are part of a bigger picture of Conquest-by-Covenant, not just sitting tight till Jesus rescues us, is a big part of holiness and perseverance. it shows that our daily lives are organically connected to God&#8217;s work in history. We ourselves are types, images.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m saying is that a direct/non-direct debate is a false dichotomy. I&#8217;m saying that attempting to interpret many passages without taking typology into account will give you the WRONG interpretation, which is why I disagree with Carson and others on their eschatology. Their failure to understand AD70 as Christ&#8217;s imminent return for His firstfruits means they actually rip the New Testament out of context and make it fluffy in application for modern Christians. It&#8217;s actually Carson&#8217;s approach that distances us from the text by getting the interpretation wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkO</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15896</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 03:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, my problem with this is that nothing you wrote in the above post addresses anger directly and explicitly. The reason why Carson favors a direct hermeneutic is because it treats the text of Scripture at its face value rather than adding layers and layers of motifs and symbols and subjective structures over top the text. 

Your structures and chaisms are very creative and indeed interesting, but they remove me a couple of steps or more from what the text itself is saying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my problem with this is that nothing you wrote in the above post addresses anger directly and explicitly. The reason why Carson favors a direct hermeneutic is because it treats the text of Scripture at its face value rather than adding layers and layers of motifs and symbols and subjective structures over top the text. </p>
<p>Your structures and chaisms are very creative and indeed interesting, but they remove me a couple of steps or more from what the text itself is saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15845</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2012 05:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15845</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You can email Dee Dee Warren at: preteristsite@gmail.com

I have some posts on here that might help:

http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2011/05/30/moses-vs-hyperpreterism/
http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2011/11/07/here-comes-success/

Basically, Revelation does what all the previous prophets did -- speak to the audience of their day, predicting an impending judgment with warnings to repent. The book is about the end of the Old Covenant, but with vengeance for all the crimes against the prophets since Abel. But it follows the standard Covenant structure, so the final section gives us a glimpse of the future, the &quot;Succession&quot; kept in store for those who obey the prophecy. In the case of Revelation, it is &quot;the heavenly country&quot; for the slain, and the end of persecution by Herod/Nero for the living. Chapter 20 covers this, and it is this chapter that pulls the rug out from under full preterism. They can&#039;t handle it without doing all sorts of weird acrobatics to get around it. Unfortunately, they don&#039;t see their interpretatinos as weird because they aren&#039;t familiar with the structures contained in previous scriptures, which Revelation recapitulates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can email Dee Dee Warren at: <a href="mailto:preteristsite@gmail.com">preteristsite@gmail.com</a></p>
<p>I have some posts on here that might help:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2011/05/30/moses-vs-hyperpreterism/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2011/05/30/moses-vs-hyperpreterism/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2011/11/07/here-comes-success/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2011/11/07/here-comes-success/</a></p>
<p>Basically, Revelation does what all the previous prophets did &#8212; speak to the audience of their day, predicting an impending judgment with warnings to repent. The book is about the end of the Old Covenant, but with vengeance for all the crimes against the prophets since Abel. But it follows the standard Covenant structure, so the final section gives us a glimpse of the future, the &#8220;Succession&#8221; kept in store for those who obey the prophecy. In the case of Revelation, it is &#8220;the heavenly country&#8221; for the slain, and the end of persecution by Herod/Nero for the living. Chapter 20 covers this, and it is this chapter that pulls the rug out from under full preterism. They can&#8217;t handle it without doing all sorts of weird acrobatics to get around it. Unfortunately, they don&#8217;t see their interpretatinos as weird because they aren&#8217;t familiar with the structures contained in previous scriptures, which Revelation recapitulates.</p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15838</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Mike!
I was just wondering how I could get a hold with someone from the Preterist Blog to answer my question. What verses refer to the second coming and which verses refer to the coming in judgment? I read parts of Chilton&#039;s Day&#039;s of vengeance and he says that the Book of revelation doesn&#039;t talk about his Second coming at all. Hope you can help!
Thanks]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Mike!<br />
I was just wondering how I could get a hold with someone from the Preterist Blog to answer my question. What verses refer to the second coming and which verses refer to the coming in judgment? I read parts of Chilton&#8217;s Day&#8217;s of vengeance and he says that the Book of revelation doesn&#8217;t talk about his Second coming at all. Hope you can help!<br />
Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15811</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 04:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not a pastor, but I am a dad. Firstly, it depends on why they are angry. Secondly, the matrix pattern has us loving our enemies, imaging Christ in order to bring them to repentance. We leave vengeance to God. But when God turns up for harvest, it&#039;s time to pour on the coals from the Altar in holy war. Loving our enemies -- making ourselves vulnerable -- either converts them or gives them an opportunity to fill up their sins. Man&#039;s anger doesn&#039;t bring about God&#039;s will, but God&#039;s anger does. The best counsel to begin with would be to pour out the angry heart in prayer - like the Psalmists did. Works wonders for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a pastor, but I am a dad. Firstly, it depends on why they are angry. Secondly, the matrix pattern has us loving our enemies, imaging Christ in order to bring them to repentance. We leave vengeance to God. But when God turns up for harvest, it&#8217;s time to pour on the coals from the Altar in holy war. Loving our enemies &#8212; making ourselves vulnerable &#8212; either converts them or gives them an opportunity to fill up their sins. Man&#8217;s anger doesn&#8217;t bring about God&#8217;s will, but God&#8217;s anger does. The best counsel to begin with would be to pour out the angry heart in prayer &#8211; like the Psalmists did. Works wonders for me.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkO</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/03/01/the-seen-and-the-seers/comment-page-1/#comment-15810</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MarkO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 04:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/?p=8938#comment-15810</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I need to council someone who is struggling with anger how does this help me help them with their anger?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I need to council someone who is struggling with anger how does this help me help them with their anger?</p>
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