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	<title>Comments on: Known in the Gates</title>
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	<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/06/27/known-in-the-gates/</link>
	<description>Theology you can eat and drink</description>
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		<title>By: Chris W</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/06/27/known-in-the-gates/comment-page-1/#comment-19787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, I can agree that a lot more water was probably used in the New Covenant baptisms than most PB&#039;s use nowadays. It&#039;s not a matter of being intent on finding a case against immersion though, it&#039;s just that a lot of people aren&#039;t convinced that it&#039;s the biblical mode (although there is some disagreement on this within the PB camp - NT Wright for example). You seem to be agreed that baptism corresponds to the laver, so water coming from above surely makes a whole lot more sense? How else is baptism to be linked with the laver?

But I see your point with the &#039;body&#039;. Perhaps there&#039;s a link with Leviticus 1. Imagine if we got the person to be almost immersed in water with their head and shoulders poking out of the water and then poured AND sprinkled water on them. Would that fit all of the typologies? ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I can agree that a lot more water was probably used in the New Covenant baptisms than most PB&#8217;s use nowadays. It&#8217;s not a matter of being intent on finding a case against immersion though, it&#8217;s just that a lot of people aren&#8217;t convinced that it&#8217;s the biblical mode (although there is some disagreement on this within the PB camp &#8211; NT Wright for example). You seem to be agreed that baptism corresponds to the laver, so water coming from above surely makes a whole lot more sense? How else is baptism to be linked with the laver?</p>
<p>But I see your point with the &#8216;body&#8217;. Perhaps there&#8217;s a link with Leviticus 1. Imagine if we got the person to be almost immersed in water with their head and shoulders poking out of the water and then poured AND sprinkled water on them. Would that fit all of the typologies? <img src="http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" class="wp-smiley" /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/06/27/known-in-the-gates/comment-page-1/#comment-19783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Bull]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Hi Chris

I think the Bible gives us as watertight case for immersion as can reasonably be expected, yet we are intent on finding holes in it! The arguments seem to be mostly arguments from silence.

There, just had to get that out of my system.

James Jordan uses the water from the &quot;Laver&quot; (which is liturgically, architecturally and perhaps physically [on a stand], &quot;above&quot;) to argue that sprinkling on the head is an acceptable mode of baptism. I&#039;ve seen Doug Wilson sprinkle water on an adult. Besides the facts that these bear no resemblance to any New Testament baptism, and the Bible consistently corresponds baptism to the Body, we do have two &quot;seas.&quot; So how do I deal with that?

Jordan observes that Egypt was watered from below and Canaan was watered from above (rain). So there is that progression, for sure. But the structure of things seems to show that the Red Sea was supposed to be &quot;it,&quot; and Israel&#039;s failure in the wilderness necessitated another corporate baptism in the Jordan. If you check the relevant chart in Bible Matrix I, it shows how that delay messed up the pattern. So, yes, I think you are correct on those two baptisms (Moses and Joshua - I had this in Totus Christus), but it&#039;s a fractal, so the longer the history goes, there is always a greater &quot;entering in.&quot;

I say this because we have the same delay in the New Testament. We have John&#039;s and Jesus&#039; baptisms as an in-and-out death-and-resurrection, but then we also have that &quot;pair&quot; of water baptisms and the greater baptism of the physical resurrection for the Old Covenant saints and New Covenant martyrs. They entered into the heavenly country with Abel and Abraham.

They do all involve passing into a new world, but because of the fractal nature of it, the previous Conquest/Vindication is likely to become the Division/Delegation of a greater pattern. This appears to be evidence for paedobaptism for those who are looking (rather desperately) for it, but all it means is that every new call involves the cutting off of the old ties.

Hope that&#039;s not too confusing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chris</p>
<p>I think the Bible gives us as watertight case for immersion as can reasonably be expected, yet we are intent on finding holes in it! The arguments seem to be mostly arguments from silence.</p>
<p>There, just had to get that out of my system.</p>
<p>James Jordan uses the water from the &#8220;Laver&#8221; (which is liturgically, architecturally and perhaps physically [on a stand], &#8220;above&#8221;) to argue that sprinkling on the head is an acceptable mode of baptism. I&#8217;ve seen Doug Wilson sprinkle water on an adult. Besides the facts that these bear no resemblance to any New Testament baptism, and the Bible consistently corresponds baptism to the Body, we do have two &#8220;seas.&#8221; So how do I deal with that?</p>
<p>Jordan observes that Egypt was watered from below and Canaan was watered from above (rain). So there is that progression, for sure. But the structure of things seems to show that the Red Sea was supposed to be &#8220;it,&#8221; and Israel&#8217;s failure in the wilderness necessitated another corporate baptism in the Jordan. If you check the relevant chart in Bible Matrix I, it shows how that delay messed up the pattern. So, yes, I think you are correct on those two baptisms (Moses and Joshua &#8211; I had this in Totus Christus), but it&#8217;s a fractal, so the longer the history goes, there is always a greater &#8220;entering in.&#8221;</p>
<p>I say this because we have the same delay in the New Testament. We have John&#8217;s and Jesus&#8217; baptisms as an in-and-out death-and-resurrection, but then we also have that &#8220;pair&#8221; of water baptisms and the greater baptism of the physical resurrection for the Old Covenant saints and New Covenant martyrs. They entered into the heavenly country with Abel and Abraham.</p>
<p>They do all involve passing into a new world, but because of the fractal nature of it, the previous Conquest/Vindication is likely to become the Division/Delegation of a greater pattern. This appears to be evidence for paedobaptism for those who are looking (rather desperately) for it, but all it means is that every new call involves the cutting off of the old ties.</p>
<p>Hope that&#8217;s not too confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W</title>
		<link>http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/2012/06/27/known-in-the-gates/comment-page-1/#comment-19779</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[But if baptism is ascension into heaven to rule and passing through the crystal sea, then surely the water should come from above? The baptisms of the Old Covenant all involved passing from an old world into a new one (this seems to be the main link between them) but our &quot;passing through&quot; is no longer into Canaan, but into heaven.

Also, do you think that there is a link between John&#039;s baptism and the Red Sea baptism and Jesus&#039;s baptism and the Jordan one? John comes as Moses leading people to repentance and out into the wilderness, whereas Jesus comes as Joshua and leads people to a lasting faith and into the heavenly kingdom.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But if baptism is ascension into heaven to rule and passing through the crystal sea, then surely the water should come from above? The baptisms of the Old Covenant all involved passing from an old world into a new one (this seems to be the main link between them) but our &#8220;passing through&#8221; is no longer into Canaan, but into heaven.</p>
<p>Also, do you think that there is a link between John&#8217;s baptism and the Red Sea baptism and Jesus&#8217;s baptism and the Jordan one? John comes as Moses leading people to repentance and out into the wilderness, whereas Jesus comes as Joshua and leads people to a lasting faith and into the heavenly kingdom.</p>
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