Thanks for your answers. It seems like you have more against the phrase ‘invisible church’ than you do against the concept of a not-yet-perfectly-identifiable regenerate body of believers. You’ve given me much to think about. I particularly like your focus on Jesus setting apart ‘all nations’. It helps me a lot when I teach the bible in Sunday School to a bunch of kids from both Christian and non-Christian backgrounds to think about that.

But I’m afraid I am not a pastor, just another obsessive guy with aspergers!

For me a pastoral heart grows from a deep intimacy with God and filling of the Holy Spirit. This is the most important thing I have learnt from the charismatic movement. A deep love of God will always lead to a profound love and pastoral heart for brothers and sisters in Christ, that is the main fruit of the Spirit’s work in us. And yet it’s so easy to forget!

I don’t care about people. All I care about is having a beautiful, logical system.

No, I actually care about both Christians and non-Christians getting a handle on the Church’s mission as a legal witness of God’s love. Paedobaptism makes non-Christians into outsiders instead of targets.

And that was a good question. You have a pastor’s heart! I’m growing one slowly but the Aspergers means I’m always to prone to say the wrong thing. And I’d probably end up kicking the sheep.

And don’t worry, I love questions.

Yes, you have it right. Christians serve among the nations as the prophets served among Israel’s tribes, and then within the empires.

The saints are known by their perseverance, but I also believe that muddying the definition, “the call” of what it is to be a Christian (holy Jedi-Nazirite), makes it more difficult discern sometimes. There will always be a “gutter” between the true saints and the actual baptized, but the job is to see as God sees and deal with it as His agents through loving church discipline. Church discipline is where baptists fail (well, they seem to be failing on just about every issue really) so credobaptistic vows with no accountability to those vows makes the baptism a bit meaningless. And seeing Church discipline carried out (even if it’s not the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira) can bring revival among the saints. That’s why we need a credobaptistic Federal Vision!

I don’t buy the ‘visible’/'invisible’ distinction but for different reasons to Dr Leithart. A regenerate person is, amazingly, flesh that is justified before God. In Christ, He now accepts human sacrifices because we are blameless. And sacrifices are not invisible. A Christian is a union of the invisible (heaven) and earth (visible). Baptism makes one a mediator between those domains (my favorite phrase is “Shekinah people” – the invisible God has moved into a visible house).

So the Church is “the school of the prophets,” but one where everyone is welcome to attend, including our children, because all are under the obligation to Jesus that we have responded to. They are to see Him in us, the mind of Christ in His Body of priest-king-prophets, an army of Tabernacles, Booths.

In your view, a “Christian” is someone who has made a confession of faith/repentance (ideally in a credobaptism) and is involved in the life of a Church in some way. This makes the “Church” a regenerate body, which nonetheless contains some unregenerate members whose deeds will give them away eventually. Is that correct?

So do you buy the distinction between the ‘visible’ and the ‘invisible’ church?

Sorry to pester you about this. It’s important to me because Christians are people and people are what matter most of all to God. An unbaptised believer and an apostate – these are real people not just abstract ideas.

1) What is “the Church”?
I believe it is the visible body of Christ, as Leithart argues, but a body of regenerate believers. Arguing that babies are conceived “regenerate” as Wilson does, or become regenerate at baptism, to maintain that visibility is no solution. See my latest post. A living sacrifice is flesh “walking around in the fire.” This is holy living, and it is visible. That’s the point of legal witness.

2) Does the Church include credobaptised believers who will later apostasize (I know some of these)?

So do we all. Faith and repentance put the believer into Christ (Head) and obedient baptism puts him/her into the Church (Body). Baptism is an act of submission and commission. If the submission to Christ and Church breaks down, then the baptismal vow is the legal reason the apostate can be excommunicated. What is excommunication? Putting the person back under the Gospel for the purpose of a new repentance. If one is excommunicated, one is no longer included in the Church. We are called to discern the spirits, which includes the spirits of men.

3) Does the Church include believers (like Leithart) who have not been credobaptised?

Certainly. Dr Leithart is regenerate. He is most definitely supernatural, a butterfly not a caterpillar. His Covenant witness/profession is testimony to that. I believe credobaptism is efficacious because God responds to the public vow of the believer, and pours out a new grace on the believer and on the Church (for their obedient faith), and also on unbelievers, because it causes them to fear. A paedobaptism doesn’t make anyone afraid. So sprinkled people are missing out on the beginning of their inheritance.

And I would see the Federal Division, the mud slinging, as the outcome of an unwillingness in both sides to submit to the plain teaching of Scripture.

As far as I’m aware, all paedobaptists believe that John’s baptism was a household baptism as well, otherwise there would be quite an inconsistency going on (which I’m sure you’d agree with). Evidence for this view would stem from the fact that John was baptising “Jerusalem, Judea and all the region around the Jordan”, in other words, basically everyone in Israel except the pharisees and their followers.

Regarding the book I referred to, it is only edited by Strawbridge. It has essays by many contributors, including Randy Booth, Peter Leithart, Doug Wilson etc. Not all of them are Federal Vision, so it’s interesting to see the differing perspectives, especially regarding Jeremiah 31. Peter Leithart’s essay is more of a sociological one though, and I can’t help but feel that his paedobaptism is inherently sociological rather than biblical, since I’ve never heard him defend it except by using sociology. But I could be wrong.

Do you mind if I ask you some tough questions about baptism and the church? I’m really interested in what you think, coming from an FV/Credo hybrid position.

1) What is “the Church”?
2) Does the Church include credobaptised believers who will later apostasize (I know some of these)?
3) Does the Church include believers (like Leithart) who have not been credobaptised?

By the way, love your latest post!

“And He led them [disciples] out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.” (Luke 24:50)

The disciples were also given the power to curse and bless others (binding and loosing) as mediators. The infants were merely recipients of a blessing. And they were not baptized. The disciples were.

Does any paedobaptist really believe that John was baptizing babies in the Jordan? There are so many problems with the theory behind this practice. It’s a string bag with no string.

Thanks for your response. Whilst going through Leithart’s book has its uses, the book is not really about paedobaptism, but baptismal efficacy (much like his dissertation – “Priesthood of the Plebs”). The book simply assumes the truth of paedobaptism. It would be better to see you engage with a work like “The Case for Covenantal Infant Baptism” edited by Gregg Strawbridge. That book was the one which first convinced me of infant baptism. I think you have examined most if not all of the most relevant biblical texts in your baptism posts though (I have read and considered all of your posts on this topic), so it might be a bit repetitive – but it would be a good systematic presentation.

Do you really mean that baptism is only for adults (men and women of age 20 and above) or do you mean anyone who responds to the gospel and wants to minister to others (of any age)?

“And He took them [infants] up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.” (Mark 10:16)

“And He led them [disciples] out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.” (Luke 24:50)